Interests of Pasmanda and upper caste muslims never meet

Khalid Anis Ansari: UP Election is to happen in two-three months. Dalit Camera is going to different places to know what this election means for the mussalman especially the Pasmanda Mussalman who can be considered as marginalized. Do you think that there are political parties in current election who is taking up their issues? Even in the ticket distribution, for example Behenji gave 97 tickets, out of which nine tickets were given to Pasmanda Mussalman.

Pasmanda population is 85 percent but they get only 10-15 percent tickets whereas 85 percent is given to Munsoof or Ashrafia Mussalman who constitute only 15 percent of the Mussalman population. Because you(Anwar Ali) have a long history with Momin Conference and you have worked with the issues of Pasmanda Mussalmans. You have consistently written on and been part of struggles, what is your opinion for this upcoming elections in UP?

The Pasmanda community did benefit in the time Taiyub Ansari and in the time of Zia-Ul-Man ansari. But henceforth Pasmanda Muslims were totally neglected. The most regretful is the Zia-Ul-man Ansari was wrongfully defamed. Since then the voice of Pasmanda Mussalmans have been suppressed completely. There is no representation of Pasmanda in any political party.

Anwar Ali: The fundamental issue is that since 1980, during Indira Gandhi’s 2nd term in office, a general term ‘minority’ has come be used for all Muslim community. All the programs: minority program, 25 point program, 15 point programs, were formulated considering the Mussalman community as a monolith identity. All the Pasmanda Mussalman were gradually sidelined, especially their leadership was marginalized. Second point, the Ashraf or the religious leadership has never addressed the Pasmanda Mussalman’s problems.

The Dalit assertion began after the Macaulay’s Minute [Minute Upon Indian Education in 1835] by Jyothi Rao Phule and Savitribai Phule. All town schools were formed in every city as per the Macaulay Minutes and in all school Dalits took admission especially in Maharashtra. However, 138 prominent Muslims who represented Governor General in Council insisted that Muslims be exempted this education and be allowed to our own education.

First representation in the name of Shimla Deputation happened in October 1906. Surprisingly there is Pasmanda representation. Nawab of Dhaka who was very popular during his time, was a Kasai by caste. [Kasai meaning people who skinned dead animals]. He was very wealthy. He traded in cattle skill and had a established business. He had been honored with the title of Nawab by the British for his favors in 1858-59. Even he was not included in the deputation. Agha Khan used to say ‘only blue blood Muslims are to be represented.’ Since the first Momin conference, the Pasmanda have had no role. Though Congress took advantage of Momin conference since 1950 and specially after Nehru’s death no benefits were ever provide to the Pasmanda Muslims by any political party. When Nehru introduced a well known Barrister to Jinnah as someone who represented the majority of Muslim community, Jinnah interrupted by saying that ‘These people have no Franchise and have no right to represent.’

The Pasmanda community did benefit in the time Taiyub Ansari and in the time of Zia-Ul-Man ansari. But henceforth Pasmanda Muslims were totally neglected. The most regretful is the Zia-Ul-man Ansari was wrongfully defamed. Since then the voice of Pasmanda Mussalmans have been suppressed completely. There is no representation of Pasmanda in any political party.

Even the Momin conference transformed from a egalitarian organisation to an Ansari organisation. It calls itself a Pasmanda organisation but if they only take up issues of weavers and not other Muslims and if all its leadership is all Ansaris/Savarna then it slowly became a organisation for the Ansaris and all other marginalized sections of Muslim community were again sidelined. This point was raised in 1976 Momin conference central executive and it was suggested to transform Momin conference to a backward classes federation. It was the time of political upheavals and Emergency, nasbandi [sterilisation] Thus suggestion got submerged.

Khalid Anis Ansari: So this is the historical account of the situation of Pasmanda Mussalman. and, you drew map of this history very well. So this is the history and now in the current scenario we have four parties contesting. As a citizen and somebody who is united in the Pasmanda concern, under which party do you think the Pasmanda community will be more secure and safe and their interests wil be heard and acted upon?

Umar Jalal: Actually any sectarian division in the ensuing political scenario will be harmful to the Muslim community. And this is not the time to divide Muslim community on the basis of caste and creed. If the electoral behavior of the Muslim community changed according the the caste, it will damage Muslim community. And, it will go in favor of fascist forces. I never faced any kind of discrimination on the basis of caste in my life.It is true that caste is closed and class is open. We should follow Islamic principles of equality, justice and fraternity

Khalid Anis Ansari: That is a normative positioning that we should follow the Islamic principles of equality, justice and fraternity or that we should follow the constitutional principle of equality.However if we look at the concrete empirical details, if we focus on the current election. For example in BSP out of 97, 8 or 9 are Pasmanda. The representation even in the ticket sharing is also loaded against the Pasmanda Muslims. If we look at the last election, there were 68 Muslim legislatures/MLAs. Out of this 68, 55 were Ashrafias. If we do the arithmetic, in UP we have 18.5 percent Muslims, then 3 percent are Ashrafias and 15 percent are Pasmandas. So the representation of 3 % was 13 percent so they were almost represented four times. If we see the Lok Sabha representation then right from first Lok Sabha till 13 Lok Sabha, 7500 MPs were returned. Out of 7500, four hundred were Muslim MPs. Out of 4 hundred Muslim MPs 340 were Ashrafia MPs. If look at the national data 14 percent are Muslim and Ashrafia will constitute 2.01 percent and their representation is all the Lok Sabhas is at least 4.5 times more. So just by taking the normative position that all Muslims are equal it violates the sociological empirical reality.

The power sharing slogan that are the Muslims are equal is actually working towards the exclusion of the most of the muslim population. In terms of power sharing it is clear that 85 percent of all Pasmanda Muslims are absolutely excluded. Fifteen percent of Pasmanda Muslims who raise the issue of Muslim victim hood, of Communalism they benefit from this politics of Muslim victim hood and are almost doubly represented in all sphere including employment, political and community sphere. all the community institutions whether you take the personal law board or the Jamat-E-Islam it is dominated by these 15 percent. And there is concrete data to back that. What is your say on that?

Umar Jalal: The marginalized sections of the society should be enlightened, educated and their should stand on their own feet without getting entangled in caste equations

Khalid Anis Ansari: Dont you think we are already entangled? When we have matrimonials and magazines like radiance..

Umar Jalal: We should make efforts to disentangle this web.

Who are the people who are living in the camps of Muzaffarnagar riots? All the people who reside there, who are dying and fighting, they are all lower caste Muslims. They are living in dilapidated houses whose roof will break in the next monsoons.

Khalid Anis Ansari: We heard two voices.Three things that i understood are: first, the biggest threat we have now is from the fascist forces and to fight fascism Muslim should work as one unit. second, Mussalman should not focus on caste and creed but should focus on education and when they get opportunity all the problems will be solved

Shahid Zuberi: From what i understand is that you are saying that we should close the caste system and open the class system. I agree that education is important. As a whole Muslim community is backward and 85 percent of them are Pasmanda. Thus, it is apparent that it is we who vote. It is we who vote and it is we who suffers during communal riots but all the benefits go to the 15 percent on the top. We should accept this reality. Agree that Islam is against hierarchies and divisions of caste and creed. Historically, the unfortunate truth is the principles of Islam are never practiced anywhere on earth. But there are hierarchies even though it does not use the word ‘caste.’ Even educated Pasmanda people are mentioned with such despised way: ‘after all he is only a julai.’ Thus, the interests of Pasmanda and the interests of upper caste Muslims never meet. Our interests are totally separated because of that mentality. Pasmandas fight the struggle for prosperity but it is the Ashrafia who take the cake. if there is a gaad in a village then the Telli will not prosper, if there is a Teli, then Julaha will not prosper. So whoever dominates will not let the weaker section prosper. This is one truth we should accept. Firstly its important that we annihilate this caste based discrimination. Then we can focus on educational upliftment.

We can see that amongst educated Mussalman the caste system has broken. However there are many instances where educated Pasmanda Muslims has discrimination in their inter caste marriages. Even the Madrassas by the Ashrafia are deemed as of high standard where as the Madrassas by Julahas and Telis are seen as sub standard. I believe that as long as 85 percent Mussalman are not happy the rest of 15 percent will also not be happy in the long run. The 15 percent upper caste Muslims are there in powerful position because of the support of the 85 percent. However when the time come for distribution of power and resources like for construction of roads or appointment of MLAs it the 85 percent who are totally forgotten and excluded. There are instances when Upper caste Muslim object to a Pasmanda Muslim offering namaz on the same platform as him. Many Muslims put a chadar like a curtain before doing namaz. ‘kuch bhi keh lo, pau ki jhooti sone ki bhi ho pau ki jhooti hi rahegi’, this kind of thinking is still prevalent in the Muslim community. Even in 1997 share of Pasmanda was nominal. Even the political parties notice who exercise more power, more sway in the community and they nominate those people. They ask the Ashrafia to put the foundation stone for the mosque because they have a hold over majority of Muslims. Thus for the party political gains they will appoint an Ashrafia Muslim. As long as this illusion does not collapse that the majority Muslims are with the upper caste Muslims. Of the 68 Muslim elected representatives of any political party, there is no one who have raised the concerns of the majority Muslims. Who are the people who are living in the camps of Muzaffarnagar riots? All the people who reside there, who are dying and fighting, they are all lower caste Muslims. They are living in dilapidated houses whose roof will break in the next monsoons. The keys to those shelters is also not handed to them, they are handed to the upper caste Muslim leaders. The 85 percent Muslim should have a target to vote for a backward candidate even if the candidate loses.

Khalid Anis Ansari: Two things that come across from what you are trying to say. One is what Dr. Ambedkar use to say that in the caste system there is an increasing order of reverence and decreasing order of contempt. People who climb up the ladder their esteem rises. People contempt increases for those who are way down. This is as much present in the Muslim community as in any other religious community. If an Ashrafia is standing for election it creates an air of reverence because they control everything, faith as well as the mosques and community resources. An atmosphere is created wherein all Muslims are expected to vote for them to fight the fascist forces. However, in case of Aligarh or any other place where a Pasmanda candidate is standing for election, he always seen in his caste category. Any Ashrafias have also voted for caste Hindu, Savarna candidate instead of a Pasmanda candidate which also reflects their caste hatred. Many middle class Pasmanda may not have felt the discrimination because of their class whereas 80 percent Pasmandas still experience this in their day to day life

Shahid Zuberi: As long as Pasmanda Muslims don’t defeat and challenge the Asrafia leadership things will not change for Pasmanda Muslims.

Khalid Anis Ansari: Ninety percent of Pasmanda children do not go to private schools they go to government schools. Since 1990, the quality of government school have suspiciously gone down. The experience of UP and Bihar which Jaffrellot [Chritophe Jaffrelot] calls is India’s silent revolution, here if we observe in the case of the Yadavs and the Dalit, here political power came first and later the employment and education ratio went up. It is through political power that they got representation and not through education. So as long as a Pasmanda is not politically articulating, he’ll lose out. Politics is always a fight against those who have kept you in this disadvantaged situation. If we see communalism in Gujarat, in Muzafarnagar, or Najeeb who was abducted, Akhlaq in Dadri, all are Pasmanda Mussalman. The whole history of communal riots , all the inflicted people are all Pasmanda Mussalman. Pasmanda Mussalman is being sidelined and he is facing fascist atrocity and who is benefitting from it?

Shahid Zuberi: Pasmanda who have education and who have money, now they have also become the new elite class. These people, they hide their caste identity because they want to be thought of as backward. Because their son is still studying and because their girls will not find good match.

Anwar Ali: Caste system is in their DNA.There was a time Genealogy of horses and camel were examined. This thing has been embedded in the conscious of Mussalman that genealogy is the most basic thing.